Description
in this episode, erich is joined by hip hop artist and cultural worker matré for a candid conversation about why conversations around race can feel so charged, vulnerable, and difficult, even among people committed to justice and growth.
together, they explore fear, in group dynamics, overlapping identities, and the tension between saying the “right” thing and speaking from love. the conversation touches on race as a collective wound, the vulnerability of being witnessed, and what becomes possible when we choose growth over performance.
this episode is the first in a short series with matre, and opens space for honest reflection at the growing edge of race, music, spirituality, and liberation.
to hear more from matre, including reflections on music, vulnerability, and healing, check out his podcast love bravely:
https://podcasts.apple.com/podcast/the-love-bravely-podcast/id1783210134
Transcript
welcome to white people black music and liberation.
i’m erich, and i’m here on the journey with you.
this is a transmission at the intersection of race, music, and spirituality it’s about moving past the programming and into liberation.
introducing matré
before we begin, i want to share a little context about today’s guest.
one of the people who has served as a spiritual compass for me on this journey is shelly tochluk. i’ve mentioned her work before because it’s been deeply formative and transformative for me. as i was putting these conversations together, i stayed in touch with her periodically, and she suggested that i reach out to matt.
only after doing that did i realize that matt and i share four or five mutual friends from his time here in the bay area.
then, when we had our first conversation, we realized something else. our ethnic heritages line up very closely. matt is arab american, half arab and half white, just like i am. that added an interesting layer to our interaction.
there’s a nuance that emerges in this work when identities blur and overlap, and that showed up for both of us. it felt really good to feel seen by him.
matt is also a courageous conversationalist. as his podcast, love bravely, suggests, he’s incredibly open and vulnerable, both in content and in style. we clicked immediately. it honestly felt like adding a new friend to my circle.
we share a lot of overlapping threads. arab american identity. love of music, especially black music. anti racism work. and a shared desire for a spiritual compass that can hold all of it.
when matt refers in this episode to “our conversation,” he’s talking about that first exchange we had. one of those conversations where you suddenly realize just how much overlap there is in lived experience.
and in anti racism spaces, conversations about multiple intersecting identities don’t always get much room. so this felt unique.
a note on the format
a quick piece of housekeeping.
matt is also known as matré in the music world. he’s a hip hop artist who’s released a lot of powerful work with the explicit intention of bringing healing and transformation into racial justice spaces. i really encourage you to check out both his music and his podcast.
this conversation starts a bit abruptly because i edited some things out. we jump straight into the question: why is it so hard to talk about race?
matt and i talked for a long time, so it made sense to break this into smaller episodes, each focused on a specific question. that’s the current format of these transmissions.
one thing that stood out in our first conversation was just how much of a wound racism is for everyone, and how hard it is even to name it. that’s what’s being referenced at the end, when matt asks a deceptively simple question: why should we even care about racism?
so with that, let’s get into it.
why is it so hard?
erich:
it’s so hard to talk about this stuff. even in the first few conversations i’ve had with people who have clearly done a lot of inner work around race, whiteness, and privilege, it’s still incredibly difficult to talk about.
matré:
i really appreciate starting there.
it takes me straight into the heart of the question. why is this such difficult territory?
there’s so much uncertainty about what to say, what not to say, and how to say it. and i think it’s because this is a place of real wound. it’s vulnerable territory.
choosing love over performance
matré:
i’ve been thinking a lot about what it means to work with love in this space. how do i engage questions around race in a way that actually comes from love?
i could try to say the things that sound the best. or i could ask a different question: what would actually be helpful, even if it makes me feel more vulnerable, even if i’m afraid of judgment?
what can i explore here that helps me grow, and helps me serve what’s actually needed in this deep and difficult part of our world?
that’s the threshold for me. and it applies to many areas of my life, but it shows up very strongly here.
in any deeply meaningful conversation, especially one connected to our growing edge, i want to be in it in a way where something new can emerge. where growth is possible.
what’s interesting is how the presence of microphones changes that. the moment you know others might listen later, a whole new layer of vulnerability appears.
and i’ve noticed fear coming up for me as i’ve moved toward hosting conversations about race. what surprised me is that the fear isn’t really about people who openly identify as racist.it’s more about my in group. people whose values i mostly share, who might call me out if i don’t say something exactly right.
that fear of being challenged by those closest to us can be sharper than fear of those outside our circles.
matré:
yeah. i can really relate to that.
closing
that’s where we’ll pause for now.
there will be a couple more episodes with matré. the next one explores a central tension many of us feel: being white and loving black music, and what a right relationship between those two things might look like.
so stay tuned.
wishing you all a great day.
i’m erich, and this has been white people black music and liberation.
if this message speaks to you and you want to be part of the journey, head to whitepeopleblackmusic.com, and let’s build a world where liberation is for everyone.
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